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Threat assessment in 3rd edition


agathosdaimon
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Hi - i am reading through the 3rd edition rules - but i am stuck on trying to figure out so much and charts and diagrams are frightfully confusing for the relative newcomer like myselt

in particular the threat assessment, where it says you add a 1d6 for every 9 threat  vs the targe- what is a "9 threat"?

also where the multipier is  x2 for "cohesion of fortified units", what is a fortified unit? is this referring to the threatened unit or the threatening unit? if by fortified you just mean its in a building?  or in a fort/redoubt? also what of the cohesion of fortified units - what state of cohesion, you  mean the cohesion is good or something, i am sorry i am just struggling to figure this out 

and for "threatened from the rear" the multiplier is x0, this is referring to the threatening unit have a threat to its rear? which negates all its threat i understand correctly that to multiply by 0 gives result of 0

or is "threatened from teh rear" referring to the target unit and their cohesion is x0?  it surely wouldnt be the attackers threat that is reduced to zero if attacking the enemies rear

 

also when the units reformation area is threatened, the modifier is x 1/2 -- again si this the threatening units reformation are of the threatened units? if the latter the reformation area is hard to attack? is that the implication?

This topic was modified 6 months ago by David

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David
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Posted by: @agathosdaimon

in particular the threat assessment, where it says you add a 1d6 for every 9 threat  vs the targe- what is a "9 threat"?

Where to obtain the Threat Value of a Unit (or commander) is available in the Stat Card section (pages 52-53). What Threat represents is described in 8.1.What is Threat? and how to calculate Threat can be found in 8.5.Determining Threat.

Posted by: @agathosdaimon

also where the multipier is  x2 for "cohesion of fortified units", what is a fortified unit? is this referring to the threatened unit or the threatening unit? if by fortified you just mean its in a building?  or in a fort/redoubt? also what of the cohesion of fortified units - what state of cohesion, you  mean the cohesion is good or something, i am sorry i am just struggling to figure this out 

A fortified Unit is a Unit that occupies a fortification, as you say, like a fort or redoubt. The Cohesion of Units varies (the Stat Cards section on pages 52-53 tells players where to find Cohesion Values) and you can find out how to calculate Cohesion in 8.6.Determining Cohesion. Threat Results outlines that players compare the Threatening Formation's Threat to the Target Formation's Cohesion to determine the results.

Posted by: @agathosdaimon

and for "threatened from the rear" the multiplier is x0, this is referring to the threatening unit have a threat to its rear? which negates all its threat i understand correctly that to multiply by 0 gives result of 0

When calculating Cohesion, a Unit that is Threatened from the rear has its Cohesion reduced to 0.

Posted by: @agathosdaimon

or is "threatened from teh rear" referring to the target unit and their cohesion is x0?  it surely wouldnt be the attackers threat that is reduced to zero if attacking the enemies rear

Yes.

Posted by: @agathosdaimon

also when the units reformation area is threatened, the modifier is x 1/2 -- again si this the threatening units reformation are of the threatened units? if the latter the reformation area is hard to attack? is that the implication?

In Threat Assessments players are calculating Cohesion of the target and Threat of the Threatening Unit. In 8.6.Determining Cohesion you'll find that Threatening a Formation's Reformation Area results in the Cohesion of the entire Formation being reduced by half.

This post was modified 6 months ago by David

-David


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agathosdaimon
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thanks - i am getting mixed up with the threat and cohesion values and which to modify when but you have clarified some things. I am just hoping to get up to speed with the rules ahead of the unit stats becoming available

so to be clear in the chart where it says to add 1d6 for every 9 Threat - the 9 refers to the threat value, any targeting unit that has a 9 gets an extra 1d6? (is this 9 before modifiers are add or after modifiers are applied)?


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David
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Posted by: @agathosdaimon

so to be clear in the chart where it says to add 1d6 for every 9 Threat - the 9 refers to the threat value, any targeting unit that has a 9 gets an extra 1d6? (is this 9 before modifiers are add or after modifiers are applied)?

After, this is covered in 8.5.Determining Threat. First the player calculates Threat, modifying it, and then each Formation receives 1D6 plus additional D6s for each 9 Threat.

-David


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sq_rigger
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David,

In the demo game I saw you running at Adepticon, two partially-deployed Formations were conducting a Movement-Phase threat assessment.  I didn't follow exactly what was going on, but it seemed that when determining Cohesion for each Formation you added up the cohesion factors for the deployed units, the formation commander, and an extra +1 for the remaining ployed portion of the formation.  Did I interpret what was going on correctly, and if so, where in the rules or quick-reference card is that extra +1 cohesion for the ployed portion of the partially-deployed formation documented?

As a side note, the example combat-phase threat assessment on page 59 ignores the +1 cohesion factor of the green side's formation commander (green should have cohesion of 8), which makes the raw threat multiple better than 3:1 but less than 4:1.  The threatening player will still roll 4 dice (1D6 + 1D6 per each 9 threat) and so will score at least 34 so still achieving a final ratio exceeding 4:1.

Regards, Ken Valenine


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lascaris@yahoo.com
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One more question in this thread while reducing cohesion of units to 0 if threatened from the rear in practice does that mean:

a) only the individual units within the formation have a cohesion of 0 and

b) assuming all the units are threatened from the rear the final "net" cohesion of the formation would be 1 as that is the minimum cohesion allowed?


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David
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Posted by: @lascarisyahoo-com

a) only the individual units within the formation have a cohesion of 0 and

Only Units contacted on their rear edge have their Cohesion reduced to 0.

Posted by: @lascarisyahoo-com

b) assuming all the units are threatened from the rear the final "net" cohesion of the formation would be 1 as that is the minimum cohesion allowed?

Correct. The Cohesion Bonus of any Formation Commander for Army/Force Commander in Personal Command would still be added, but in a situation like you describe, the Formation likely has so much Fatigue their Cohesion Bonus will be reduced, so ultimately the net result is likely going to be '1' Cohesion set by the minimum.

-David


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scottzimmerlee@comcast.net
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On page 74 (upper left), it states “Commander’s Threat Bonuses are applied against each target formation there units threaten and for each range their units threaten each target”. Does this mean when in combat & the first wave is in contact & the se one wave is 3” from the opponents, do you use BOTH the Contact bonus & the short range bonus?


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scottzimmerlee@comcast.net
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Another question, do larger units (when compared to an opponent) have any bonuses (like in second edition)?


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David
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Posted by: @scottzimmerleecomcast-net

On page 74 (upper left), it states “Commander’s Threat Bonuses are applied against each target formation there units threaten and for each range their units threaten each target”. Does this mean when in combat & the first wave is in contact & the se one wave is 3” from the opponents, do you use BOTH the Contact bonus & the short range bonus?

All ranged Threat requires an open lane of "fire" (unlike in ESR 2nd Ed.), additionally ranged Threat from Infantry (i.e. skirmishing) and Contact Threat from Infantry aren't both counted in either Threat Step, however, with those things noted, if a player has a ranged Unit Threatening the enemy during the Combat Phase's Threat Step (say an Artillery Battery) and a Unit at Contact with the enemy (say an Infantry Battalion), and the Formation Commander (or any Army/Force Commander in Personal Command) has Threat Bonuses for both range brackets, then the player should apply both Threat Bonuses.

 

That make sense?

Posted by: @scottzimmerleecomcast-net

Another question, do larger units (when compared to an opponent) have any bonuses (like in second edition)?

Not in the same way as 2nd Ed., but there is a Formation Trait ("Big Battalions") that provides an additional +1 Cohesion for the Formation for every three deployed Infantry Battalions. You can find that Trait among the Formation Trait Cards included in our ESR Command Decks, in the Series 3 rulebook (page 77), or in the Austrian Force Composition Guide.

-David


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OldBob
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Two questions on calculating cohesion, page 74. Both apply to a unit that has its Reformation Area threatened.

1) Is the cohesion level of office(s) applied to the unit before or after the 1/2 for threatened reformation area applied?

2) Is the fatigue applied to the unit before or after the 1/2 for threatened reformation area applied? If after it doubles the penalties for each fatigue.

I.E. A division that has a +2 leader and a total of 10 cohesions for units. It also has 4 fatigue. 

If both are applied after then you have 10/2 +2 - 4 for a total of 3.

If both are applied before you have (10 + 2 - 4)/2 for a total of 4.

If the officer is applied after and the fatigue is applied before you have (10-4)/2 +2 for a total of 5.


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David
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Good question. This is a perfect one for us to update the FAQ with.

Posted by: @oldbob

1) Is the cohesion level of office(s) applied to the unit before or after the 1/2 for threatened reformation area applied?

Per 8.6.Determining Cohesion the Formation's Cohesion Value is calculated by summing the values of the Cohesive Units and modifying by the Quick Reference Guide's Threat Table, then adding the Commander's Cohesion Bonus ('then' added by me here to confirm clarity for your question). This is an easy thing to trip up on and I'm sure I've fouled it up various times when counting up Cohesion myself.

Posted by: @oldbob

2) Is the fatigue applied to the unit before or after the 1/2 for threatened reformation area applied? If after it doubles the penalties for each fatigue.

The modifiers on the Threat Table of the Quick Reference Guide are listed in the order they are applied, so Fatigue is applied after.

-David


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